In conversation with Andreas Schleicher
Dr Hanan Khalifa, Director: Research & Impact, Cambridge Partnership for Education in conversation with Andreas Schleicher, Director of Education & Skills, OECD at the Education World Forum 2022.
Social and emotional learning
Hanan:
Social emotional learning, as you mentioned [in your Education World Forum speech], I totally believe that you can measure it. I believe you can measure anything, and you don't need many resources to measure it. But the bee in my bonnet is that we could do wonderful measurement, but is it only a school’s problem, it is only a teacher’s issue – whose issue is it?
Andreas:
You need to have a system that is open to evidence and data. You need to build a culture. Your teachers need to become data scientists. Your school leaders need to become data scientists. We all need to be interested to learn from patterns. We have made education an art of individuals. We need to not make it less of an art but more of a science. If we want to scale and spread success, we have to produce more replicable good examples, and that really is about data and evidence. I think we can do that in observation – transform observation! It can be a powerful tool to see yourself in the mirror of what other people are doing. We just have to become more creative in our measurement and in how we create meaningful instruments for people that are not about verticals – shifting information upwards – but shifting it outwards to your fellow teachers, to your neighboring schools. Then, I think, we can change a lot.
Hanan:
For the average teacher, could they actually make those instruments of measurement? Or would they download it from a website? Or would they go to OECD and say, “Give us tools”? Where do they get the information from?
Andreas:
I think it’s the same as curriculum. We should have more open educational resources – not just on what you teach, but also how you observe how well things are taught and their measurement. And I do believe there are now many good instruments. When PISA developed our international assessment of social emotional skills, we borrowed a lot of existing kinds of literature and instruments. I think we should become better at this. It should be natural for a teacher to have access to great open resources, not just for teaching, but also for measurement. You can't expect a teacher to reinvent the wheel. That's not a good use of their time.
Foreign language assessment
Hanan:
And, social emotional learning, I see it as very interrelated with languages and language competencies because if you speak more than one language, you’re a little bit more self-aware, you've got intercultural competence. You become more emotionally aware and socially more competent because you're learning more than one language. And I know you're introducing PISA (OECD’s Programme for International Student Assessment) for foreign language assessment, talk to me a little bit about that.
Andreas:
Well, the motivation was the interconnected world. Today you have to be able to see the world through different lenses and perspectives, appreciate different ways of thinking, understand different cultures, be willing to engage with different cultures, and that's what foreign languages are about. Foreign languages are a communication tool, but that's probably the minor role they play in your life. You know, the moment you learn a foreign language is the first moment you start to think about language and to understand your own language. That's the moment you start to think about grammar and vocabulary and all those concepts that are natural when we are growing up with our mother tongue. So, I do believe that foreign language is a very powerful tool to help us triangulate, see the world through different perspectives and appreciate and engage with different cultures.
Hanan:
Interesting that you're saying that because I'm a native speaker of Arabic, and I’m an avid reader, ever since I was a little kid, but learning English and then learning French made me actually realize the power of the Arabic language which I had taken for granted as a native speaker.
Andreas:
That's the point, and for us it's very important in the world in which we live. Technology pushes us in the opposite direction. It makes you talk with people who think like you, look like you, who walk like you. It puts us into these echo chambers that amplify our own perspectives and insulates us from divergent views. I think foreign language is a good antidote to that, to be more open to other ways of thinking.
Hanan:
PISA and TIMSS (Trends in International Mathematics and Science Study) have had great impact on various countries. I’ve heard you talk about that, and I've heard other countries talk about the results and how the results led them to change as well. What do you think the PISA for foreign language assessment may lead to?
Andreas:
First of all, it puts [foreign language learning] on the map. We've always seen foreign language, sometimes even as an extracurricular subject, something that comes somewhere on top. With the new PISA, it’s going to be part of the metrics for success of education. Do we educate people for an open world? For an interconnected world? And countries will be measured by this. Those countries that educate a lot of people learning foreign languages, of course have a clear advantage. We're going to see probably more of a difference across countries than when it comes to mathematics and science, because they are universal subjects. I think it's going to be an incredible tool for countries to see what is possible in this field. I would expect that countries will turn to those that are doing really well and think: how have you achieved that? We're going to question some of our practices. Foreign languages, you know, you do not learn when you are 20, you learn them best in the early ages. School has a unique opportunity to give us those tools.
Hanan:
We're starting with English, because I believe that's what the PISA governing board have all agreed to. What other languages do you think will be coming along just after English?
Andreas:
English was a natural starting point. That's the foreign language most commonly taught, but the idea is to make this a kind of open platform so when there is a group of countries that wants to compare [a language], we would be open to adding languages. And I do believe it’s important that this becomes not about English, but about can you speak another language that is not your own?
Cambridge is working in partnership with the OECD to develop the first PISA assessment of foreign languages, which will be carried out worldwide in 2025. It will be the world’s largest comparison of educational outcomes in English language teaching and learning.
